1 (edited by Josselin 2013-09-02 11:49:15)

Topic: Art movements

Hi all,
Would it be possible to add more art movement categories, as listed on this page http://www.the-athenaeum.org/art/movements.php
I have seen that I can sort an artist into these listed categories, but I cannot create new ones. However, some movements such as Impressionism, Neoclassicism, Rococo, Academism, etc., would be relevant to organise the tremendous amount of painters hosted here. If you want, I can help you in defining movements, especially for the French School.
Josselin

Re: Art movements

Aha, you caught me!

I've been quietly adding code for art movements over the last two weeks, without having "announced it" yet. It's about 75% where I want it to be, but it's not finished. It makes me happy to see that you found the page and used it with no direction; that implies it's fairly simple to use.

Right now, my thinking is that adding/removing/renaming a base art movement will be restricted to a few people who will "curate" them. Associating individual artists with a movement will be available for any member to do.  I've been going through and populating the movements, but of course we're missing quite a few.

I'll add the movements you mentioned today, and can add any others as you need (though I won't go through and add the artists to the movements yet). I expect to continue working on the overall functions of adding/editing/viewing/searching/displaying art movements for another couple of weeks, so if you have ideas or questions, let me know!

Thanks,
Chris

Re: Art movements

Thank you for your reply, I didn't know that you were precisely working on this!

May I suggest you to add the possibility to sort these movements chronologically, to create expanding/collapsing menus and  subcategories? For instance, Pointillists or Les Nabis were Art groups which belonged to the general Post-Impressionism movement. That would be great to do it because it will soon become overcrowded with artists (more than 4000 of them to classify!).
Moreover, you should maybe create a distinction between leaders and followers; for example, in the Pre-Raphaelite movement, you have the founding members (Rossetti, Hunt, Millais...), and those who followed them later (Waterhouse, Leighton, De Morgan...); Idem in Neoclassicism, with David and Mengs as founders in their countries.
And at last, in the case of a movement which spread on several countries, it could be a good thing to make subcategories by country. I especially think to Academism, which was very influential in France and Britain.

With these suggestions, users could have a clear general time line of Art movements. I just hope I don't give you to much work!

For Art movements, I would also need Romanticism (1800-1850), Veduta (1710-1770), Dutch Golden Age (1620-1700) and Baroque (1590-1720). That would occupy me for a few weeks. :-)
Thanks,
Josselin

Re: Art movements

Hello Josselin,
    Great ideas all, and much in line with my plans. ;-)

    Dates will certainly go in soon-ish, and subcategories. Eventually I want to be able to show timelines similar to this: http://www.1st-art-gallery.com/timeline.php

I'll leave for now the discussion of "leaders and followers" as it gets a bit messy, but definitely thinking about it.

Interestingly, my wife is a Pre-Raphaelite scholar, so she has some ideas about that group.

Thanks again for all you're doing, and please keep giving us feedback; it really helps to know what people want.

All the best,
Chris

Re: Art movements

Hello Josselin,
     You are doing a great job adding artists and getting them into the movement categories.

Just a quick update:
- I've updated artist listings on a number of pages around the site to show their movement if available
- I've updated the Movement detail page to have a better-formatted list of artists
- I've updated the Movement detail page to show museums with the most artworks by a movement, and then created a filter for the artwork listings for museums to (for example) "show only Impressionist artworks at the Met". To my knowledge, **no other web site does this**.
- Added the movements you listed: Romanticism, Veduta, Dutch Golden Age and Baroque

Next up (maybe done by the end of the weekend?):
- Creating a tab on the museum page to show most common movements in the museum collections. To my knowledge, **no other web site does this**.
- Adding a page to edit some details of a movement, and creating fields for movement dates and countries where it was active.
- Adding a kind of subheader on the "All movements" page to show a description of the movement and break up the page a bit.

At that stage, I'll consider "Movements Version 1.0" complete, and officially announce it on the site.

Then I'll need to design some of the messier things like subcategories/hierarchy, and different levels of association to a movement.  I also want a way to designate specific artworks as famous/notable examples of a movement. I expect those things may take a month of playing around, as I start to switch over to some other functions on the site.

Thanks again for the work you're doing, and please let me know if you have ideas or see bugs that need squashing!

-- Chris

Re: Art movements

Hello Chris,

Good job with the museums, I didn't think of that.
May I add some suggestions :

- You should put links on the names of the movements on the dedicated page.

- It is impossible to uncheck art movement. You should allow to revert a mistake.

- Would it be possible to put the artist's name and the title in the name of the downloaded picture. So far, the default name on every downloaded file is 'display_image.php'. It costs me some time to copy/paste the title for all the pictures I download. And why not a possibility to download every pictures from an artist in a single row?

- I had an idea but it would take a lot of time, and I don't think I will be able to do it this year: Internet Archive put online the old catalogues of Paris Salons, with pictures, but only in black and white. Some artists and works have disappeared since, others are still recognized. http://archive.org/search.php?query=paris%20salon
Maybe you should be able to create a possibly to check a picture according to its exhibition in a Salon (with the year) in order to retrace the progress of Academic art throughout the years (the fist Salon took place in 1737), considering that the Salons were the main events of artistic life until 1900. I don't think someone elsewhere has already done that, but as I said, It would take a lot of time and I won't get mad if you say no. :-)

- At last, I'd like to ask if there is a limitation or a rule for the size of the images? I tried to upload large images from Google Art Project (the finest on the Internet), but it spent some time to fully display it. Moreover, it refused to upload pictures above 2Mb. Is there a standard/required resolution?

Josselin

Re: Art movements

It seems that there is a duplication for Rembrandt, who has two pages on him. This one is likely to be deleted : http://www.the-athenaeum.org/people/detail.php?ID=2130
The Nationalmuseum of Stockholm,  the National Galleries of Scotland and the Smithsonian also have two pages.

Re: Art movements

This morning I added a page to edit basic details of an art movement, including the start and end dates. You can also enter a short explanation of the beginning and end dates. There's now a tab on the movement detail page to show the dates and date explanations, and the dates themselves, along with the short description, show up at the top of the movement detail page.

I also added a subheader under each art movement on the main listing. It shows dates (if they are entered), the short description (if it's entered), and a link to the detail page for the movement.

I'm not going to put too much work into the formatting of the main art movement listing until I re-work it to be hierarchical and have a "shortcut" way to getting to the movement headings (i.e., so you don't have to scroll way down the page to get to Symbolism for example).  For now it's not terribly convenient to scroll around that page, but it works.

At this stage, I think we have "1.0 status," where things work pretty well but could use some fine-tuning.

Re: Art movements

chris_mccormick wrote:

This morning I added a page to edit basic details of an art movement, including the start and end dates. You can also enter a short explanation of the beginning and end dates. There's now a tab on the movement detail page to show the dates and date explanations, and the dates themselves, along with the short description, show up at the top of the movement detail page.

I also added a subheader under each art movement on the main listing. It shows dates (if they are entered), the short description (if it's entered), and a link to the detail page for the movement.

I'm not going to put too much work into the formatting of the main art movement listing until I re-work it to be hierarchical and have a "shortcut" way to getting to the movement headings (i.e., so you don't have to scroll way down the page to get to Symbolism for example).  For now it's not terribly convenient to scroll around that page, but it works.

At this stage, I think we have "1.0 status," where things work pretty well but could use some fine-tuning.

Good job, but all the pages redirect to the Hudson River School!

Re: Art movements

Josselin,
    You're doing a fantastic job helping me direct my work, and I appreciate the input. However, could I ask you to start new threads for separate topics? This thread started off being about the art movements, so it will be hard for me (or others) to keep up with new things introduced several posts in, such as your note about duplicate artists/museums.

If you can generally try to keep separate ideas in separate threads, I'll work on each in turn.

Thanks!

Re: Art movements

Good job, but all the pages redirect to the Hudson River School!

Just fixed it - good catch. ;-)

12 (edited by Josselin 2013-05-25 08:45:45)

Re: Art movements

All right, I will just speak of art movements in this thread, sorry.

I'm wondering if you already have an art movements listing in mind, because I want to be sure we have the same ideas on this point.

I think Wikipedia listing is correct for the Old Masters:
    Early Netherlandish
    High Renaissance
    Mannerism
    Baroque
    Caravaggisti (maybe as a subcategory of Baroque)
    Classicism (idem)
    Dutch Golden Age
    Rococo
    Veduta
    Neoclassicism
    Romanticism

But it becomes messy after 1850: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art_movement#19th_century
I think that we could create such large categories:
- Academism (with subcategories by country)
- Pre-Raphaelites
- Realism (with subcategories by country: Hudson River School, Barbizon School and Peredvizhniki)
- Impressionism
- Post-Impressionism (with subcategories: Les Nabis, Symbolism , Pointilism..)
- Expressionism (with subcategories: Fauvism, Cubism, Blaue Reiter...)

What do you think?

Re: Art movements

Hey there Josselin,
     Today I added a bit to the art movement Edit page so you can make it a subcategory of another movement.

For now, an art movement can only be a subcategory of one other movement (i.e. only one "parent"), and we're only supporting on level of "nesting". In other words, you can have a "movementswithin a movement", but not "a movement within a movement within a third movement".

I'm also working on a new way of showing the movements list, but having some trouble wrangling with formatting. You can see the current version of that here: http://www.the-athenaeum.org/art/movements_test.php

Hopefully within the next day or two I'll have the listing page working the way I want it. But you can start making a hierarchy now if you like.

-- Chris

PS: No need to apologise about starting other conversation in this thread. I'm just trying to keep my to do list organised. ;-)

14 (edited by Josselin 2013-05-26 17:52:56)

Re: Art movements

Great job Chris, it looks even better than I thought!

If you agree with the movements I listed above, could you add them (Mannerism, Realism, Renaissance, Early Netherlandish...)?

In the case of there is a painting which embodies the movement, maybe you should put it in the movement description page. For instance, the Talisman by Sérusier launched Les Nabis group.

I'm embarrassed by Goya, who changed his style from Rococo to Romanticism around 1794 (so I linked him with both movements). But in the thumbnail page of each movement, his works from his 'other' career appear (like his paintings from his dark period in the Rococo page). Maybe, in that case you could 'split' his work and prevent the 'wrong' part from being displayed in the thumbnails. I hope it won't cost you to much time to deal with this detail!
Hopefully, not all the painters knew such a change in their career.

I've been busy with the Dutch Golden Age and the list seems now complete (even if there are still some important artists missing on the site such as Van de Velde or Van der Neer). :-)

Re: Art movements

I've seen that you have added nearly all movements between 1400 and 1940! But it seems that I made a mistake with the Caravaggisti; I linked the page with the same movement and I cannot cancel my action. Can you do it?.  http://www.the-athenaeum.org/mvmt/detail.php?id=23

Re: Art movements

Hello Josselin,
    I fixed the issue with the Caravaggisti, and I also fixed the page so that a movement isn't listed as a possible "parent" for itself. ;-)

Now I'm re-working the Edit page for an artwork, putting several actions into tabs instead of separate pages. Then I'll make a tab to designate an artwork as a "significant work" for a movement. Hopefully I'll get that done today.

After that, I'll update the person-to-movement designation to allow dates, which will allow us to fix people like Goya as mentioned above.

We're getting there! It's nice to think that over a couple of weeks we will have built an index of movements that rivals any on the web.

Re: Art movements

Hello Chris,
     Good job again with the code.

To make it clearer, maybe you should directly put artists in sub-categories into the parent category? For instance, Rembrandt would be automatically classified as Baroque just by adding him into the Dutch Golden Age.
That would be especially relevant in the case of Expressionism, with so many little groups. The parent category would therefore display a global overlook of this movement.
    I have assumed that Expressionism was the general movement in both Europe and America which comprised many of these little groups which only lasted a few years. I think that we need a name to match all of them and Expressionism in painting didn't seem to have been an organised association, contrary to all of the movements of these period; that would mean it was only a common name to refer to all of these artists. Moreover, it seems that this name was the only to last on several decades. If you agree with this assertion, can you add Die Brücke and Dadaism (or Dada)?
Josselin.

Re: Art movements

Josselin,
    You're a step ahead of me as always. Yes, an artist in a sub-movement should also be shown under the parent movement. There are a few actions where this is relevant:

1. Adding an artist to a sub-movement: Put them under parent movement as well.
2. Putting one movement under another: Add parent movement to all artists of sub-movement who don't already have it.
3. If an artist is brought into a parent movement (Expressionism for example) due to membership in a sub-movement (Die Brücke) and they have an "active period" of certain years for the sub-movement, does that also get applied to the parent movement? Hmm. I'd think so, but not sure...

If we end up with three levels (god forbid), it gets more complex.

This is one of the remaining "clean up" tasks for the next few days.

I've added Die Brücke and Dada.

- Chris

Re: Art movements

Quick update:
I now have a basic facility working to designate artworks as "significant" for a movement (through the Edit page for an artwork). There are a few things I want to add and clean up, but it's working.

The artwork page will show a box explaining why it's important to the movement (see here), but I need to add something on the movement page itself to show significant works.

Also, you can see that the page for Braque's work is now a bit ugly. I need to revisit some general layout issues there and think about how we might display special boxes for movements on artist and artwork pages (sort of like the summary box for a person on Wikipedia, see here, but first I'll work on setting periods of inclusion to a movement for artists.

20 (edited by Josselin 2013-06-15 05:11:44)

Re: Art movements

Can you add the following categories:
- Futurism, as the Italian and Russian branch of Expressionism.
- Renaissance, as a general movement, which will comprise Early Renaissance (1440-1500), High Renaissance (1500-1530, already created), and maybe a Northern Renaissance (1500-circa1560) to deal with Holbein, Cranach, Bruegel... The problem for the Renaissance (and Mannerism) is that there aren't many of artists from this period on the website.
- Surrealism. I don't think it can be related to Expressionism as the movement lasted longer and spread on more countries than all the small expressionist groups I spoke above, not to mention the style which was very different; so it should be an independent category from the beginning of the 1920's to the death of André Breton in 1966.
Those avant-garde movements and artists are nevertheless very difficult to define.

Re: Art movements

Hello Josselin,
    I've gotten Early and Northern Renaissance entered under Renaissance, and added Futurism.

Yeah, the definitions and dates are hard for these things. While dates for something like an art movement will always be arguable, it's good to have them so that eventually they can be shown in timelines.

22 (edited by Josselin 2013-06-14 17:25:09)

Re: Art movements

Hello Chris,

Can you remove Lucas Cranach and Holbein from the High Renaissance category?

I am wondering if it would be relevant to create a subcategory for American Impressionism as the movement seems to have been pretty strong and happened 20 years after its French counterpart. You decide.

I didn't find any artist that could be linked with Pop Art.

For Dutch painters of the Dutch Golden Age, there is a duplication in the artists list as they are recorded as "Dutch Dutch Golden Age painters".

In museums and movements lists, painters who belong to two different artistic movements are displayed twice, for each movement. For example: http://www.the-athenaeum.org/sources/detail.php?id=214

23 (edited by Josselin 2013-06-07 19:05:38)

Re: Art movements

Hello Chris,

Can you please add these new movements: Surrealism and Abstract Art?

Thanks again for your work!
Josselin.

24 (edited by Josselin 2013-06-14 17:54:50)

Re: Art movements

Hello Chris,
I have written descriptions (as well as date explanations) for most of the movements listed on this page: http://www.the-athenaeum.org/art/movements_test.php#
But as I am not an English speaker, you should take a look to check (I hope I didn't make too many mistakes!). It's hard for me to write short and catchy sentences to describe art movements, which can be difficult to explain (such as Pointillism or Impressionism).

Josselin.

Re: Art movements

Hello Josselin,
     I just wanted to say that you have done a fantastic job on this. I know how much work it is, and I appreciate it a lot. More importantly, the tens of thousands of people who use the site every month appreciate it!

I have a longer term plan to begin using Redactor (a nice web text editor) around the site, which will make those kind of edits easier in the future. Then it will make practical sense for people to work on longer articles, without worrying about HTML code.

Thank you very much for the wonderful work you are doing,
Chris