Topic: Feedback requested: Artist "modifiers"

Hello all,
     I've begun work on a way to add "modifiers" to the authorship of an artwork. With this new feature, we'll be able to distinguish between artworks that are 100% certain to have been created by an artist (the default case), and other categories, such as "attributed to," "a follower of," etc.

I have a bit of work to do so that these categories can be used when entering or editing an artwork, getting them to display properly, etc. But for now, I just want to be sure we are happy with the categories.

Please look at this example of an editing page: http://www.the-athenaeum.org/art/edit_t … ?ID=127230 Changing the category does not work yet! Look at the categories and click the "What do these modifiers mean?" link.

Are you happy with the modifiers we have? Do you agree with how I have explained them?

Thanks,
Chris

Re: Feedback requested: Artist "modifiers"

Hello Chris,

Good job with this feature, it is exactly what I had in mind when I proposed it.  However I'm not sure of the difference between "following" and "after". To my knowledge, the former means an unknown artist in the style of a known artist, whereas the latter indicates a copy of a specific artwork by an unknown artist.  In both cases, the artist is unknown, so I don't think it is worth creating two different categories for such a nuance.

Josselin.

Re: Feedback requested: Artist "modifiers"

Thanks Josselin,
    I've had a heck of a time disentangling the meanings of "following" and "after". My definitions come from professional bodies:

Art Libraries Society of North America: http://www.arlisna.org/organization/sec … ifiers.pdf

I had another similar one from the Getty web site, as part of a system called "Categories for Descriptions of Works of Art" or CDWA).
Apparently that one has been built up since the early 1990s by the Art Information Task Force

Their discussion of "qualifiers" (I should probably call them qualifiers as well):
http://www.getty.edu/research/publicati … #Qualifier

General info in the CDWA, which could form a base for many of our decisions about categorising things:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categories … rks_of_Art

Re: Feedback requested: Artist "modifiers"

Ok, but if you choose to use these qualifiers, you should put a description of them somewhere on the editing page.

Re: Feedback requested: Artist "modifiers"

Josselin,
    I have the description in that link - "What do these categories mean?". It should do a pop-up window with full explanation. I could put a shorter version right on the main editing page as well.

Re: Feedback requested: Artist "modifiers"

Update:

Completed
1. Changing the artist modifier works on the EDITing pages.
2. On the main page for an artwork, the artist name will use "Workshop of", "Follower of", etc as appropriate.


Still to do
1. Add the modifier code to the page for first ADDing artworks.
2. Update other places where artist names are displayed.
3. Adjust artwork counts in most places to only use counts for "default" and "attributed".
4. Add some way on an artist's art listing to show art by related people separately, and perhaps to turn this display on and off.

Could someone choose an artist and update a number of the existing works so that they use the new modifiers? I need a test case to work on how they are displayed in lists. My suggestion would be to use the authoritative Rembrandt database by the Rembrandt Research Project: http://www.rembrandtdatabase.org/Rembrandt

Thanks,
Chris

Re: Feedback requested: Artist "modifiers"

chris_mccormick wrote:

Still to do
1. Add the modifier code to the page for first ADDing artworks

Chris,
Can you add this feature? It's annoying to edit each time I add an attributed artwork.
Thanks.

Re: Feedback requested: Artist "modifiers"

We would also need the "with workshop" category.

Re: Feedback requested: Artist "modifiers"

Hello Josselin, I added  the artist modifiers to the page for adding artworks. Now it's on both the add and edit pages.

Can you explain the difference between "Workshop of" (which we have now) and "with workshop" which you requested above?

Thanks,
Chris

Re: Feedback requested: Artist "modifiers"

chris_mccormick wrote:

Hello Josselin, I added  the artist modifiers to the page for adding artworks. Now it's on both the add and edit pages.

Can you explain the difference between "Workshop of" (which we have now) and "with workshop" which you requested above?

Thanks,
Chris

Hello Chris,
"With workshop" means the artist made some of the work, then let his assistants finish it. For example, Hyacinthe Rigaud frequently just painted the face and hands in his portraits. "Workshop of" means the artist didn't make the work, he could have supervised the process, but his hand cannot be found in the artwork.

Re: Feedback requested: Artist "modifiers"

Hmm. I'm not convinced that we need a separate category for "the artist verifiably did at least part of the work, but not all of it," especially since artists in the heyday of workshops did a LOT of their work in this manner. I'd suggest that if an artist did part of an artwork but the workshop contributed as well, this can be described in the artwork text rather than categorising it as a "different artist". Would that be ok?

Re: Feedback requested: Artist "modifiers"

As you want. It's just that some artworks are categorized this way in auction catalogues.

Re: Feedback requested: Artist "modifiers"

chris_mccormick wrote:

4. Add some way on an artist's art listing to show art by related people separately, and perhaps to turn this display on and off.

I think you should also create a separate list of drawings as it is done by academic catalogues raisonnés.

Moreover, some artists were multi talented and created artworks on different mediums. The best example is maybe Michelangelo (sculptor and painter), or more recently Gérôme, Rodin, or Degas who were all painters and sculptors. Maybe we should create two separate lists as well.

In addition, prints and etchings shouldn't be listed with paintings as they were made in several copies. I'm not even sure it's relevant to display the museum for a print, since several other museums would also have other copies; or perhaps it'd be better to add a list of museums known to have a copy of this print?

Thus, we could theoretically have these lists displayed on the front page:
- Display everything
- Genuine paintings
- Sculptures
- Drawings
- Prints and etchings
- Associated works (workshop, followers, after)

And finally, I recommend to discount prints and non-genuine works from the various counts at the end of the artist, museum and movement pages.

Josselin.

Re: Feedback requested: Artist "modifiers"

Hello Josselin,
     This is basically my plan. Perhaps the only the place were we differ is that I think any original work in whatever medium should be included in the "main list". So for Albrecht Dürer or the Limbourg brothers, who worked mainly on paper in prints and etchings, those would count in the "main works" list. Now eventually we would want some way for works to have a way to list locations of their "copies" and the "original" if relevant. I think scholars would find that really useful.

By the way, I also consider each physical copy of a work to merit its own listing. Dante Gabriel Rossetti for example painted about 8 copies of Proserpine. They are all basically the same, but each is significant to scholars and fans in its own right. So when I refer to "copies" above, I mean "mechanical copies," such as multiple prints run off of a press.

The main delay here (apart from finishing other tasks on the site) is that I want to figure out how to dynamically reconfigure the artworks displayed on a listing page without reloading the page. Then we could have a series of checkboxes at the top to allow people to change what artworks are visible, without reloading the page over and over. Once I have that ready, changing which artworks are displayed will be trivial.

15 (edited by Josselin 2014-05-18 15:00:07)

Re: Feedback requested: Artist "modifiers"

Chris,
In case of prints, I think we need to distinguish prints made after works by an artist, and prints done by this artist. Durer or Rembrandt were important etchers and painters, but most of prints were made by professional printers. The former category would go in the associated works list, the latter in the list of prints by the artist.

I have no problem with creating entries for paintings executed several times, since they are still slightly different.